Topic: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

How can you have an idea of X if you have never seen X in the sense world?


Can animals think "outside their box"?

2

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Technically, no ideas exist in the 'real' world. Everything exists in the ideal. Do animals have a box?

3

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

What if you were to write your idea down, then it would be in the sensory world. Granted some ideas cannot be fully translated into words or pictures in the sensory world.

4

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Yet your ideal square, for example, that you would think of would not be completely square when you draw it on paper.  If we measured all the angles of that drawn square,  they may be close but they will not be exactly 90 degrees

5 (edited by Dykstra 2007-03-14 14:37:14)

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

What if God drew square and left it on earth! Then we'd have an ideal square. What if we have a squarish idea or do ideas have to be dead on and perfect. Can you not have a flawed idea?

6

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

What happens if there is a fluke of nature and there is an exactly triangular triangle? Wouldn't that throw all Platos ideas out the window?

7

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

If one could not create an idea that they have not seen in the sensory world, then humanity would be stuck, unable to grow. If that is the case why would we even try to improve upon ourselves.

8

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Of course you can  have a flawed idea. All ideas start out as a flaw then people rip it apart until they figure it out. Eventually that idea then gets ripped apart and turned into a new idea. Its how the world works.

9

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

You cannot have idea in the real world they seem to only exist within urself and its like u cant get it out of the box, same with the kitten.

10

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

All things that exist in the mind, are real things, in the "real world", Anything in the imagination, stays in the imagination.

11

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

If ideas only exist in the ideal then why aren't all ideas ideal?

12

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

The mind is "real" so all ideas that exist in the mind must be real.

13

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

You make a good point.  If I have the idea that I can fly then why shouldn't I be able to fly in the ideal world?

14

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Sure you can have an idea of X, our sences dont stop or start us to make ideas

Animals can think outside their box, if they didnt, they would never learn anyting, my dog has learned to sit if it wants a treat, if it stayed in its box, it would act the same all the time.

15

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Why do we feel the need to create new ideas.  Ideas are always going to be ideal to the person who makes up the idea. But since not everyone  can agree on one thing. then not everyone is going to agree on what is ideal

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Dykstra wrote:

What if God drew square and left it on earth! Then we'd have an ideal square. What if we have a squarish idea or do ideas have to be dead on and perfect. Can you not have a flawed idea?

If God can make a perfect square, are you sure there are no perfect squares?

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

adamhockey2 wrote:

Why do we feel the need to create new ideas.  Ideas are always going to be ideal to the person who makes up the idea. But since not everyone  can agree on one thing. then not everyone is going to agree on what is ideal

What's 1+1? I'm certain we all agree on one thing. And a second, a third, and so on. Agreeing that 1+1=3 isn't an ideal, 1+1=2 is the ideal. Agreed?

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

mimartin wrote:

Sure you can have an idea of X, our sences dont stop or start us to make ideas

Animals can think outside their box, if they didnt, they would never learn anyting, my dog has learned to sit if it wants a treat, if it stayed in its box, it would act the same all the time.

Take human ideas out of the equation: still going to find dogs that sit for a treat?

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

chandersen wrote:

If ideas only exist in the ideal then why aren't all ideas ideal?

All apples are fruit but not all fruit are apples.

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

dsharp wrote:

All things that exist in the mind, are real things, in the "real world", Anything in the imagination, stays in the imagination.

If by "thing" you mean "idea" then consider the following: Is imagination closer to an "ultimate reality" than what is "out there"?

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

travis wrote:

Of course you can  have a flawed idea. All ideas start out as a flaw then people rip it apart until they figure it out. Eventually that idea then gets ripped apart and turned into a new idea. Its how the world works.

You sound like a natural philosopher looking for a basic substance in the physical world. Ideals, if they can be divided, must do one of two things then: continue to rip apart till they dissolve into nothing, or be reduced to a single idea that is indivisible.

Plato states that ideals are immutable(never changing) and eternal.

The square is an ideal, but it contains a right angle . . . another ideal, and a segment with an endpoint . . . and a point, and . . . and . . ..

Check out Euclid's five postulates.

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

farkashingston wrote:

Yet your ideal square, for example, that you would think of would not be completely square when you draw it on paper.  If we measured all the angles of that drawn square,  they may be close but they will not be exactly 90 degrees

Could we even find a single point in space to begin the first segment?

Where is {0,0}, the origin, anyway?

23

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Imagination is clearly what drives our ambition to create a world in which ideals reform from the impossible to reality. Human beings are constantly striving towards becoming what they see as the ideal person and acting as though they have a desire to become such. Even though these imaginative traits and ideas may make oneself feel as though they have been destined by great ambition and intention, they are not always realistic. What is it that seperates what we see as possible and what we see as impossible? A common saying is "you can do anything if you set your mind to it", so why can't we do the things we imagine (within reason) ourselves doing and act the way we imagine ourselves acting? What slows us down from being "perfect"? And how do we know that constructing a "perfect square" is impossible for everyone with the exception of God?

24 (edited by ldutchak 2007-03-14 17:28:25)

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

As suggested by Euclid's 5 postulates, "Any two points can be joined by a straight line." In terms of humans striving to become what they imagine as "ideal", what have individuals done to cause that straight line to be damaged? If we all indeed were great ideal people, would the line not have remained perfectly straight?

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Does a rabbit imagine carrots before it goes to find carrots? The rabbit finds carrots through the use of its senses, not reason.

Surely a rabbit can't imagine the radius of a circle and its relation to the circumference in order to construct a pyramid to a god its only imagined. What circles exist in a rabbit's mind? What gods for that matter?

We find circles only in our mind, we have discovered the ideal pyramid but we can only construct replicas. By studying the remains of pyramids, we encounter the universal ideals on which they were based. When the last grain of sand washes away, the ideal pyramid remains, as it was before the first stone was formed.

World Wonders inspire awe in what ancient man has created. What immutable and eternal ideas were they based on?