26 (edited by ldutchak 2007-03-16 15:12:02)

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

Just as a rabbit uses its senses to go out and find a carrot, humans use their senses to set goals and follow dreams in pursuit of someday becoming what they wish to become, only more in depth. A rabbit can only think so far, can only react to its senses so quickley. To a rabbit, a basic circles exists in order to tell it when and how to eat, sleep, run, etc. To a human, a circle is imagined in such an efficient way that it may be put to effective usefulness. Evidence of this use can be derived from the 7 wonders of the ancient world that man created, based on imagination, ambition, and the intention of slowly progressing towards and a world in which ideal things are not so rare.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

The rabbit would not set goals. It only has the desire to eat a carrot once the rabbit finds the carrot. Rabbits would only think about the carrot once it can see or smell the carrot. Rabbits just hop around until they find their food. Once they find something worth eating, they eat it and there hunger is satisfied.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

An idea that doesnt exist in this world, cannot exist in the world of ideas...I once had a thought like this, but that was long ago... If the world of ideas contains the perfect form for all things on this planet, then something that doesnt exist here cannot exist in the idea world...unless we didnt find it yet. The thought I had was that everything we thought of, showed up on some other place...crazy, I know.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

If we didn't have ideas that do not exist in the sense world, then how do we have all the modern technology we have today. If Thomas Edison did not have the idea of a light bulb, then he wouldn't invent it. He would've had to have an idea of a source of light, electricity, to invent the light bulb.

As for an animal, I would have to say that an animal could not think outside of its box. You couldn't go into the forest and find wild dogs shaking paws for treats, urinating in the same spot without anyone training them. Now, rabbits i'm sure can picture the image of carrots after been eating carrots for their entire lives, but animals cannot think outside their box

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

A rabbit can't imagine a carrot if it has never seen a carrot, that makes no sense. If someone say the word duck to me and I have never seen a duck and in my mind it looks like a moose, that doesn't make a moose a duck.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

A rabbit can imagine a carrot with out seeing one, for visualising a carrot is only imagining the shape, color, and texture. but although a rabbit can imagine a carrot without seeing one, chances are it won't know that it is a carrot that it imagining but more of that it is imagining an orange triangle with leaves

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

In order to picture our idea, we need to see the form of that idea before we can make a idea. That is a little confusing, but back to rabbit idea, the rabbit can only picture it's bright orange carrot with the golden glow around it, only after it has seen that carrot before. The idea item only comes after we see the non idea items.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

I also agree with machehade, hes right without any ideas we would not what we have today. I also agree with gsanson, about nobody would we able to see the animal as its own animal, but why is that? We all have our own ideas and beliefs and inventions, so why is it that we depend so much on the technlogy that is out there and given to us, rather then attempt to create our own?

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

moldenburg wrote:

I also agree with machehade, hes right without any ideas we would not what we have today. I also agree with gsanson, about nobody would we able to see the animal as its own animal, but why is that? We all have our own ideas and beliefs and inventions, so why is it that we depend so much on the technlogy that is out there and given to us, rather then attempt to create our own?

Create our own what? Technology? We deffinately create our own of that. Our own ideas? Well if you are talking to Plato, everything is just a bad image of a perfect idea. There aren't any new ideas.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

machehade brings up a good point.  We must imagine a substance (X) before we can create it.  If you are making something new, that no one has yet seen, then the inspiration for that creation must be purely ideal.

As for the animals, they are doomed to live a life trapped inside the box.  Unlike humans, animals were not given the mental capacities to do something unexpected or spontaneous.  Animals can only do what is expected of them- a rabbit can only act like a rabbit, it cannot decide to act like a wolf and start hunting other rabbits.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

I agree with machehade with the idea that animals cannot think outside of their boxes. Gfraser also brings up a good point with animals not given the mental capacity to do all the things humans can. Humans train animals to do what they want them to do, like for example shaking paw or rolling over, ect. Without the human training, animals would stick to doing only what is expected of them.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

how can we have ideas that do not exist in the real world becaus we are thoght are salfe and thing that are thoghts cant mack stuff real wath out the thing that thoght of us. and if we thoaght of it then the world would be boring if every one got what they whant if we had a idea of it.

Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

scrooks wrote:

How can we be sure that there isn't a perfect square or a perfect right triangle somewhere in nature? There is no "perfect" way to measure the perfect right triangle for instance, therefore how could we possibly know what a perfect right triangle is.

And somehow I have managed to confuse myself! A very mind boggling conversation this is!

Wouldn't imperfect tools yield false positives? Where are the false positives, then?

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

We cant it is imposable to think of some thing in you hade but some people could make that a real like computers and robots but it would not be exactly what they wont but close enough

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

We can not make perfect tools becasue there is no real goal of perfection. If we are never satisfied with what we create there can never be perfection.

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Re: How can we have ideas that do not exist in the "real" world?

To inspire, even the greatest wonders first had to be inspired. Those ideas that were first so simple -- circles, and right angles, and the like -- were taken and magnified. They were made so complex that the human mind must now comprehend new boundaries. It is astounding how an idea as simple as a circle could cause fear, doubt, or sadness to well up in the heart of mortals.

Perhaps that is the advantage humanity retains. Perhaps only we have the ability to take what is simple and morph it into pure emotion.