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Topic: The seven seals

I don't get why God would create the seven seals i thought God loved everyone and did not want to kill everyone. Why would God release Lucifer to destroy us. 


These are the seven seals

    * First Seal - Conquest, White horse
    * Second Seal - War, Red horse
    * Third Seal - Famine, Black Horse
    * Fourth Seal - Death, green or pale horse
    * Fifth Seal - Vision of martyrs
    * Sixth Seal - Earthquake and the marking of the 144000
    * Seventh Seal - Trumpets of Angels and the end of the world

Re: The seven seals

dpottle wrote:

I don't get why God would create the seven seals i thought God loved everyone and did not want to kill everyone.

You are right, God wouldn't, he didn't and he won't.
John, the writer of Revelations had the vision. The events he described were for first century Christians in the midst of turmoil created by their earthly enemies - Greeks and Romans.

I'll continue...

Re: The seven seals

John wrote the book to 1st century Christians, specifically members of seven churches

Revelations1:1 wrote:

"Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

The historical purpose of John's vision/dream, yes a terribly scary vision at that, is to reassure the members of these seven early Christian communities that Christ is with the saints and victorious in the end.

Revelations21 wrote:

"See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them;
he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away."

In the final section, Epilogue, John and the Angel refer again to the central message of the book: those already persecuted by evildoers can come to Jesus:

Revelations22 wrote:

"It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.’
The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’
And let everyone who hears say, ‘Come.’
And let everyone who is thirsty come.
Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift."

I like the emphasis on free choice - "anyone who wishes" may come to Jesus. "Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift."

Early Christians were persecuted, tortured by Greeks/Romans. The vision of John prophesies an even more hellish turmoil than what they are currently experiencing, to which Jesus is still victorious. Jesus is victorious in the vision - his Revelations. Christians will be victorious against their persecutors, in this life - or the next.

The effect of John's book on these early 7 churches would be to give them courage to stay holy, stay the course, Jesus is with them, and his gifts are for them if/when they choose to come to him.

It is not God that is persecuting first century Christians, but John passing on an - albeit scary -  invitation to come to Him. Many Christians suggest that God could wipe us all out with great suffering if He wanted to. Point is this - He doesn't want to wipe us out. It didn't happen in the first century, it never will. It happens in John's vision to show that Jesus shall overcome. No matter how our end comes, we will always find the gift that brings us to Jesus. Yes the dreams/visions sounds as more of a warning to early Christians than an invitation, but that is John's Revelation - John's style. The Gospels and Letters from Paul (from St. Jerome's writings and translations by the way) form a much more consistently loving and forgiving - inviting - God for sure.

4 (edited by dpottle 2009-10-16 09:53:59)

Re: The seven seals

But if John saw it may  it could come true in the future:p

Re: The seven seals

dpottle wrote:

But if John saw it may  it could come true in the future:p

God is alive, John is dead. "The end" didn't happen. It won't, rest easy.

6 (edited by sean.earle 2009-10-19 09:06:51)

Re: The seven seals

Are you sure about this think carefully for it could mean our deaths if your wrong

7 (edited by dpottle 2009-10-19 09:18:37)

Re: The seven seals

i think the seven seals could be used in the future. God could have used john to tell the story that the world would be destroyed by the seven seals in the future. But we dont know when they could start breaking now or 50 years in the future but we actually we dont even know that the seals will break!!:(

8 (edited by heidi.stoyko 2009-10-19 09:44:06)

Re: The seven seals

I think both Sean and Devon are over exaggerating quite a lot. Everyone is going to die no matter how healthy we are. Its not that hard to face, we have a lot of opportunities in life to take and we live it to the fullest. God gave us ( giving us) so much but we have to make those decisions to live a great life. Then we die in the end, or maybe early but thats the plan he has for us. Don't spend your life worrying about it, just live.

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Re: The seven seals

Sean and Devon, I think the reason why you are interpreting the stories this way is because you don't fully understand them. You don't need to be scared of these stories causing your death when you are going to die anyway and God will be there to take you. Heidi is right.

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Re: The seven seals

Don't believe everything that is seen or heard. Take your time to understand these things, don't be so influenced by writing.

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Re: The seven seals

So really heidi your saying that the bible is wrong because thats where i saw it.

Re: The seven seals

dpottle wrote:

So really heidi your saying that the bible is wrong because thats where i saw it.

Interpretation of the bible, like any interpretation of the documents of our history require an appreciation for the context in which they were created.

The big picture of why Revelations was written can't be tossed out when zooming in on a little piece of it.

Interpret the bits consistently with the whole. Take the time needed to understand that the whole is the sum of its parts.

13 (edited by ewalker 2009-10-20 14:26:54)

Re: The seven seals

God technically did create Lucifer. Although, Lucifer was the one who damned himself. He was an incredibly vain angel. He thought himself better than god, and tried to overthrow him. He failed of course. Sadly, he turned many angels against God. Now, they are Demons, and Lucifer as a punishment from God, became Satan. Thus is the creation of Satan.

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Re: The seven seals

The seven seals are basically the whole story of revelations

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Re: The seven seals

God did release Lucifer at the end of Revelations

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Re: The seven seals

To destroy the four tribes why would god realese Lucifer if he banished him to hell

Re: The seven seals

dpottle wrote:

To destroy the four tribes why would god release Lucifer if he banished him to hell

He didn't, he won't. The whole book is a story to buff up the courage of early Christians to maintain their faith in Christ's victory over evil - in the face of their earthly torturers and persecutors. The 7 events of John's vision are not literal. They didn't happen. They won't happen. That time has passed. Christ already is the living victor.

Catholic teaching dismisses the emphasis other Christians place on the "1000" year pattern of imprisonment and release of a false Christ and Lucifer. If this world comes to an end, there will be a cause that makes sense. God does not send tribulation or disaster. He does not have a plan to destroy us. To use the bible to "fortune tell" current events, especially events around the millennium (y2k or "2012") is wrong.

The Catholic Church now strongly condemns millennialism as the following shows:

Catechism of the Catholic Church. Imprimatur Potest +Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Doubleday, NY 1995, p. 194 wrote:

The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

The Church in its history has gone to great lengths to lay out her documents of faith, the creeds: Nicene and Apostle's creed. These creeds must be at the centre of any Catholic interpretation of the bible. Creed first, bible second. Our faith is laid out in the creeds, not in scripture alone.

Catholics do not define their faith by scripture alone.

The Pope and the Apostles say not to worry about the "1000" year pattern, I won't either.

Come see me in 2013.

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Re: The seven seals

heidi.stoyko wrote:

I think both Sean and Devon are over exaggerating quite a lot. Everyone is going to die no matter how healthy we are. Its not that hard to face, we have a lot of opportunities in life to take and we live it to the fullest. God gave us ( giving us) so much but we have to make those decisions to live a great life. Then we die in the end, or maybe early but thats the plan he has for us. Don't spend your life worrying about it, just live.

Why wouldnt god what us to live forever thou?

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Re: The seven seals

dsader wrote:
dpottle wrote:

To destroy the four tribes why would god release Lucifer if he banished him to hell

He didn't, he won't. The whole book is a story to buff up the courage of early Christians to maintain their faith in Christ's victory over evil - in the face of their earthly torturers and persecutors. The 7 events of John's vision are not literal. They didn't happen. They won't happen. That time has passed. Christ already is the living victor.

Catholic teaching dismisses the emphasis other Christians place on the "1000" year pattern of imprisonment and release of a false Christ and Lucifer. If this world comes to an end, there will be a cause that makes sense. God does not send tribulation or disaster. He does not have a plan to destroy us. To use the bible to "fortune tell" current events, especially events around the millennium (y2k or "2012") is wrong.

The Catholic Church now strongly condemns millennialism as the following shows:

Catechism of the Catholic Church. Imprimatur Potest +Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Doubleday, NY 1995, p. 194 wrote:

The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

The Church in its history has gone to great lengths to lay out her documents of faith, the creeds: Nicene and Apostle's creed. These creeds must be at the centre of any Catholic interpretation of the bible. Creed first, bible second. Our faith is laid out in the creeds, not in scripture alone.

Catholics do not define their faith by scripture alone.

The Pope and the Apostles say not to worry about the "1000" year pattern, I won't either.

Come see me in 2013.

So when was the book of Revelations actually written?

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Re: The seven seals

eric.walker wrote:

God technically did create Lucifer. Although, Lucifer was the one who damned himself. He was an incredibly vain angel. He thought himself better than god, and tried to overthrow him. He failed of course. Sadly, he turned many angels against God. Now, they are Demons, and Lucifer as a punishment from God, became Satan. Thus is the creation of Satan.

Why would he realise Lucifer to destroy the four remaining tribes. Micheal was the one who fought Lucifer not God! Micheal and his army of angels sent Lucifer and his demons to hell

Re: The seven seals

dpottle wrote:

So when was the book of Revelations actually written?

Sometime in the 1st or 2nd Century (ie 70-199 AD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Dating

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Re: The seven seals

so if God did banished satan for a thousand years before realesing him against the christains that are left. Then it would have happened already. But maybe St. John saw the seven seals be broke in the furture when we didnt believe god anymore

Re: The seven seals

dpottle wrote:

so if God did banished satan for a thousand years before realesing him against the christains that are left. Then it would have happened already. But maybe St. John saw the seven seals be broke in the furture when we didnt believe god anymore

The events described in the story did not really occur. Period. I don't wish to encourage this type of biblical fortune telling. I concur with what Pope Benedict has said:

Pope Benedict XVI wrote:

During a discussion about Revelation on 23 August 2006, Pope Benedict XVI remarked: "The seer of Patmos, identified with the apostle, is granted a series of visions meant to reassure the Christians of Asia amid the persecutions and trials of the end of the first century."

There is nothing to fear about the current state of the world that relates to these revelations. The book was intended as a "sign of the times" to first century Christians. Fueling the belief that the devil will soon be among us is wrong. . . and scary.

God is not going to pout over those that don't believe, he hasn't been holding a 2000 year-old grudge either.

The Pope has emphasized that Revelations as a Book has it's place in history, it is not the only interpretion. There are many competing views about the Christian eschatology. Sorting out the official Roman Catholic view from all the rest can be difficult.

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Re: The seven seals

so why was revalstoins in the bible

Re: The seven seals

dpottle wrote:

so why was revalstoins in the bible

First, anything the Church decides as "official" is done via Canon Law. That any official bible contains the Book of Revelations is simply because the law of the church decided it should.

Secondly, the New Testament was not written in one go, it evolved over time. Early Christian fathers, Apostolic fathers, those earliest Christians who may have had contact or known first hand the earliest scripture writers collected the first writings of the Church.  The Gospel of Luke, for example, was an evolving and changing "research paper" in its earliest days. The fist line of the Gospel of Luke identifies the problem of scripture and its many sources

Luke 1:1 wrote:

Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us...

The most significant legal promulgation confirming the present structure of the Catholic biblical canon(aka the canon of Trent) was from the Council of Trent in 1559-1563.

By the way, The Vulgate is the most notable Catholic bible translation by St. Jerome into Latin in 392AD.

About he same time as Trent, the Anglican and Protestant Churches announced their own translations of the bible. Compare the table of contents a Vulgate based bible with the King James version. Revelations is in both, by the way, but some books/letters are not.

Finally, the current Catholic version of the bible is the New Revised Standard Version or NRSV. It has the "Imprimatur" of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops for use by Canadian Catholics since 1991. The NRSV was officially adapted for the mass in November 2008.

So to sum up, any book in the oldest bible was approved by the oldest fathers of the church. The current Canadian church fathers as recently as 2007 have also confirmed the inclusion of the "vulgate" books in the current Catholic NRSV bibles.

The short answer as to why it's there is that St. Jerome included it in the Vulgate in 392AD, and it's been there ever since.